Denial of Service (Obamakare in the UK?)
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Author:
Harrison
Tags:
Democrats health rationing Liberals nhs Obama obamakare single payer socialized healthcare socialized medicine uk
Socialized healthcare humor.
I found this to be a rather disturbing article from England about their National Health Service and the rationing of care. Let me share just a few points from this article:
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
The Government’s drug rationing watchdog says “therapeutic” injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.
Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.
So when the state decides what is “acceptable” care for its citizens, those taxpayers, who shell out their income to “participate” in socialized medicine are denied the care they need they have to spend what little money they have left over to buy their own care:
Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as £500 each for private treatment.
The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.
The article continues with more “great” news for victims of socialized medicine:
The NICE guidelines admit that evidence was limited for many back pain treatments, including those it recommended. Where scientific proof was lacking, advice was instead taken from its expert group. But specialists are furious that while the group included practitioners of alternative therapies, there was no one with expertise in conventional pain relief medicine to argue against a decision to significantly restrict its use.
He said: “The consequences of the NICE decision will be devastating for thousands of patients. It will mean more people on opiates, which are addictive, and kill 2,000 a year. It will mean more people having spinal surgery, which is incredibly risky, and has a 50 per cent failure rate.”
What President Obama wants to do is to give us a similar system. For those who say this is a lie spread to instill “fear” into people here is Obama saying it in his own words:
What we are now seeing in England we could very well see in the U.S. The article finishes:
“It was horrendous, I was spending hours lying on the sofa, or in bed, I couldn’t spend a whole evening out. I was referred to a specialist, who decided to give me a set of injections. The difference was tremendous”,
Within days, she was able to return to her old life, gardening, caring for her husband Herbert, and enjoying social occasions.
“I just felt fabulous – almost immediately, there was not a twinge. I only had an injection every two years, but it really has transformed my life; if I couldn’t have them I would be in despair”.
I know what some of you might be saying… “Isn’t our healthcare rationed now under private insurance policies?” The answer is “yes” certain procedures and treatments are not covered however take a look at these facts:
• Survival rates in the U.S. for common cancers are higher, and in some cases much higher, than in Europe and Canada.
• Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed nations and spend less time waiting for care than Canadians and Britons.
• Americans have more access to new medical technologies than Canadians and United Kingdom residents, and are responsible for most health care innovations.
• Americans are more satisfied with their care than their counterparts in nations with socialized medicine.
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06:19
This article really speaks the truth about private healthcare and government sponsored healthcare. Ultimately, when it comes to government on anything, they simply don’t really give a crap about the end result. Why? As for as they are concerned, money is endless as long as there are tax payers to pay all their taxes. So, when a person can get what he or she wants by forcing others to pay for their expenses, he or she won’t care how others pay his expenses as long as he or she is happy. In the case of healthcare, government won’t care what your health issue is and what treatments you need. They will first look at their pocket before they take a look at your doctor’s assessment of your health issues. Basically, government wouldn’t care if you die. In fact, that’s what they probably hope happens to you. So, then the government doesn’t have to pay for your health problems. Go figure.
Mark´s last blog ..Not Spending but TAXCUT or TAXBREAK IS WHAT WE NEED!!!!
10:16
Mark, I completely concur with your post. You have pointed out one of the major issues with any government run plan–it’s dependence on taxpayers to fund it: When costs run out of control (like in Britain or our Medicare) the only rational choice is to trim the public health care budget and that is done by rationing because politicians are loath to raise taxes so high that it would threaten their political future. (I wish liberal economists like Paul Krugman would be honest and straightforward about this.) The results of having a bureaucrat decide elective treatments due to rationing is far worse, in my opinion, than anything ObamaCare advocates tell us of the private market.
vulcanhammer´s last blog ..The Hypocrisy Of The Left
10:36
Do I have to laugh or cry?
The terrible state of the healthcare in the UK is because of Thatcher her influence on it. Copy paste it from the USA!
‘Your facts’ are hilarious and not based upon one scientifical article.
In fact, every 20 minutes an American dies because he/she could not afford health insurance.
The pervert health system in the USA, based upon quota on how many acts a doctor provides, makes it impossible to cover it 100%. For example; I have pain in my stomach..I go to a specialist and he decides to give me the drug A. I don’t trust him and want a second opinion and another doctor gives me drug b and recommend me treatment x..and so on and on. Doctors earn money by how many acts they provide, not by healing someone.
I have world covered health insurance through my Dutch insurance provider ING (larger than the City group) for 70 € a month….and the USA hospitals love me when I want a treatment there since they know that ING pay within a week. ING just announced that after 1 year of losses they make profit again. He. you must know ING bank…doing well in CA..))
The four facts you provide are assumptions…even research goes mor smoothly in Europe than the USA and I dont count the UK as European.)!
kindest
hans
Hans´s last blog ..How do you know if wired.com is reliable?
10:39
You have to go back 20+ years to Thatcher! That is hilarious. As if no politician in England could have changed the laws since she was in power.
And if you have prostate cancer or breast cancer, and you live in the EU, your chances of living are dramatically less than in the US where testing measures are more aggressive.
“In my post on health care on June 7 of this year I referred to a study published in Lancet in 2007 that compares five-year cancer survival rates for the US, the United Kingdom, and the European Union as a whole. The study examines early diagnosis, early treatment, and access to the best drugs, and finds that the United States does very well on all three criteria. As a result, five-year cancer survival rates are much better in the US: they are about 65% for both men and women, whereas they are much lower in these other countries, especially for men.”
http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/archives/2009/07/mortality_from.html
So, Hans, if you live in the EU and have prostate cancer, you’d better cry. Sorry but them’s the facts.
11:43
Another excellent post, Harrison. Thanks for highlighting Mr. Obama’s stance in his own words, otherwise he would try to waffle and say he didn’t say it. Thumbs up.
Al´s last blog ..Observations
12:07
No Harrison, you can not deal with interpretation of facts.
Every social and empirical study shows that when you live in the USA you are more likely to get a disease than in any developing country.
Since you don’t acknowledge, as a good Ron Paul fan (including his fascist Montana militia relations)UNESCO or any other independent survey, you come up with one article in the Lancet posted andmisinterpreted in a blog.
Please, tell me in which developed country people are dying daily since they can not afford healthcare? In which developed country hospitals refuse to help patients since they dont have health insurance? Please, tell which EU country…
Waiting list are longer in the EU, thats right, but in the USA they dont help you if you dont can afford healthcare….so, no waiting lists….
so simple….
The only area the USA is superior is knowledge…but by buying knowledge from India, China, Japan, the EU doesnt make a country strong…..your educational system sucks…and has no future.
And about your comments about hybrid rigimes like Russia…they kill their journalists..in the USA presidents…
What did we witness today in NH…a town hall meeting with a guy who took his gun with him…..
Yeehaaa…lets play poker.)!
Kindest
hans
Hans´s last blog ..How do you know if wired.com is reliable?
15:54
“Every social and empirical study shows that when you live in the USA you are more likely to get a disease than in any developing country.”
link please. i know that americans are typically more obese, and live longer than most in developing nations.
still, i would find it interesting if i had a greater chance of contracting malaria, polio, typhus, cholera, bubonic plague, cancer, or any other disease linked to squalor, vermin, pollution, and famine in america than in a developing country.
23:19
I can’t remember the last person I read about dying of diarrhea in the US… despite what some of us eat but in the developing world it is one of the leading causes of deaths.
17:20
Hans said: “Every social and empirical study shows that when you live in the USA you are more likely to get a disease than in any developing country.”
Hans, really? The U.S. has more MRI units, CT scanners, better breast cancer survival rates, better prostate survival rates, better colon cancer survival rates. The U.S. even has a better heart attack survival rate than the OECD median. Those of us that oppose ObamaCare understand that the U.S. health care system is top notch and we don’t want it wasted away with a massive government option.
vulcanhammer´s last blog ..Obamanomics Explained – Spreading the Wealth
22:04
I have heard of people dying in developed countries in Europe because they don’t have air-conditioning. It is always entertaining to find Europeans, plagued by a post-imperial inferiority complex, try and belittle America. Sorry, Hans, but America is superior to Europe in a lot more ways than knowledge. The only thing worse than letting people die is not letting people be born. Hans, find me a European country that isn’t committing demographic suicide. Hans, say hi to your mom for me (I am assuming that you are a grown man that still lives with his parents). When you outsource more and more of the risk of being human and making life-important decisions to the State, you end up with a population that looks like Europe: a continent full of 40 year old adolescents who never had any children who are sustaining their rapidly collapsing entitlement programs by importing immigrants from some of the most un-progressive cultures on the planet. I predict Euorpe’s socialized healthcare doesn’t last much longer.
burro´s last blog ..Attack of the Clones: Battle of Bloghorn
22:37
Hans lives in Turkey though he is not from there. I understand him wanting to support the system he grew up with but many things about Europe will not fit socially or economically in the States and vice versa. People in the US eat poorly, exercise rarely, and many are not well educated. The first two are because of how they were raised, the last because of how the state does a poor job with education. I’ve lived in Europe (France) and though I liked it a lot I’m glad I am back in the States.
I know you lived in the US for a while in various cities, Hans, but Burro makes some good points. From a demographic perspective, Europe is a time bomb and they won’t be able to support themselves for much longer and, pretty soon, you’ll all be living under Sharia law anyway as Muslims out-reproduce your kind. It’s only a matter of time.
And I think 200,000 elderly French did die from lack of A/C. Good point, Burro, I forgot about this.
22:59
I wonder how he talked his parents into moving to Turkey.
burro´s last blog ..Attack of the Clones: Battle of Bloghorn
23:17
Now, now. I appreciate Hans’ participation and the time it takes him to write his comments in a non-native language. I may disagree with him on many things but we can’t personally attack the man. I know of plenty of Americans living with their parents and driving BMWs and being selfish about mooching off of their parents who have not taught them how to stand on their own two feet.
23:36
I appreciate Hans’ participation too. So, I apologize if the comment was taken as a personal attack. It was intended to be a joke about Europeans in general never moving out of their parent’s homes. On another note, look who is posting a comment on your blog…
burro´s last blog ..Attack of the Clones: Battle of Bloghorn
23:48
What I find most amusing is that apparently he is writing your blog posts!
So, Burro…I must ask you… are you Paul or is he the Walrus?
23:39
Paul’s comments have been removed for being SPAM. You may see how he is spamming people by looking here:
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/TheIndependentBloghorn/~3/j6qAl46-YZ4/
Paul… if that is your real name… your mindless blather, pasted on many other websites, shows that you are nothing more than regurgitating sack of flesh but, to quote Repo Man: “There’s room to move as a fry cook.”
00:51
He is not a good enough writer to be writing my blogposts, he must have infiltrated commentluv – the fiend! Did you read the comment word for word? There was a thinly veiled confession.
burro´s last blog ..Attack of the Clones: Battle of Bloghorn
20:48
One of the reasons my family has never taken a trip abroad is because, if my brother has something happen to him, he needs the best medical care available. Guess where that is. Here. We almost took a european trip many years ago, but it was cancelled because my Grandma was in a serious car accident which put her in the ICU for weeks. Ironically, both situations apply to universal healthcare. My Grandma was in the hospital for weeks, needed life sustaining measures taken, and had open heart surgery to keep her alive. She’s currently alive and kicking, doing just great. She probably would be dead if we’d had Obamacare back then.
Liberty Belle´s last blog ..Wait, who’s invoking Nazi talk?
01:37
Burro, I am 51 and moved out when I was 18, moved to the USA when I was 20, travelled through South America for a couple of months when I was 21, moved to London, Paris, La Spezia Italy, NYC, Waldorff Germany, Brussels, Prague, Miami, now Turkey. Travelled to more than 50 countries on 5 contigents and…my parents are dead.
The Netherlands is the 3rd world largest food providing country in the world after the USA and France and we are with 16 million people only.
Can you mention 3 products which are quality based and made in the USA? 1 Microsoft 2. Nike. 3. dont tell me DELL ……..and look around which cars, which furniture, design, brand products, food (Unilever is Dutch for your information), banks, ?nsurance companies etc. are European…
Burro, I l?ved for 6 years in the USA, 4 years study, 2 years work…and I find Americans, the youth, compared with Europeans immature, naiv and often ignorant.
I see a lot of asumptions here, no facs.
About healthcare…I agree with Caledonian Jim (Harrison already read it)and I quote him here:
The healthcare debate in the US seems to be getting ugly. President Barack Obama and other Democrats advocating reform are being compared with Nazis (example above) and one congressman has had a swastika daubed outside his office. The FBI is investigating the swastika that the staff of the congressman, David Scott, found painted on a sign bearing his name near the entrance to his office in Smyrna, Georgia. The incident came less than a week after a rowdy town hall meeting in which Scott was involved in acrimonious exchanges with critics of Obama’s proposed health reform.
In a separate incident, police admitted they were helpless to do anything about a man who openly carried a gun outside a venue where President Obama addressed a public meeting on the health issue at Portsmouth, New Hampshire. The man, William Kostric, held up a sign reading “it is time to water the tree of liberty,” an apparent reference to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson that the the tree of liberty “must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants”. Police kept close watch on him but were unable to intervene because the law in New Hampshire allows firearms to be carried in public, provided they are visible.
Maybe it’s time some people in the US cooled down a bit. Now far be it for Caledonian Comment to get too involved with American politics – and I do understand that many people in the US, not least those who’ve paid for Medicare over the years, will be naturally anxious – but when you allow guys to openly carry weapons in close proximity to a President, you’re asking for trouble. And when a politician has a clear mandate to effect change, as Obama does, it doesn’t enrich the ongoing debate when people are accused of Nazism and Communism, nor does it help when the British National Health Service is ridiculed by ignorant retards like Sarah Palin. For all its faults, the UK system is way ahead of anything the US has to offer most of its citizens. And it’s amazing too how many people who claim to support democracy – the same rabid rednecks who would claim America is an exemplar to the world – can’t seem to accept a democratically elected President because he’s black and so resort to puerile, juvenile, ignorant, bigotted, medieval trashing tactics. Surely America and Americans deserve better than the tawdry level of debate that’s going on at present. If people in America don’t like what Obama’s doing, they have VOTES. Such a process is called democracy and it seems it’s high time some Americans remembered that.!”’
and
”
The debate in the US on President Obama’s healthcare plans is sure hotting up. The most senior Republican on the Senate finance committee, Chuck Grassley, took right-wing criticism of Britain’s National Health Service (NHS) to a newly emotive level by claiming that his ailing Democratic colleague, Edward Kennedy (pictured above), would have been be left to die untreated from a brain tumour in Britain on the grounds that he would be considered too old to deserve treatment. “I don’t know for sure,” said Mr Grassley. “But I’ve heard several senators say that Ted Kennedy with a brain tumour, being 77 years old as opposed to being 37 years old, if he were in England, would not be treated for his disease, because end of life – when you get to be 77, your life is considered less valuable under those systems. He would be left to die”. Maybe US Senators should stop talking bollocks about our NHS – and if Grassley wants to talk about Kennedy and people being left to die in the same sentence he could perhaps recall an incident in 1969 involving a young woman at Chappaquiddick Island.””
Hans´s last blog ..Western culture strikes back
01:54
“Can you mention 3 products which are quality based and made in the USA?”
1) Caterpillar 2) Oracle 3) Lockheed Martin
vulcanhammer´s last blog ..Obama tries to compare healthcare to the USPS–Stupid Move
03:14
We have in the Netherlands the ‘lockheed affaire 1975′ syn. for ‘corruption’.
Caterpillar is too small, and yes, Oracle still has a name, what’s left of it.
Of the three only Oracle has some kind of brand name.
Hans´s last blog ..Western culture strikes back
03:50
Fixed That For You:
“So when the insurance company decides what is “acceptable” care for its customers, those people who can afford it, who shell out their income to “participate” in an isurance plan are denied the care they need they have to spend what little money they have left over to buy their own care:”
“Ultimately, when it comes to private companies on anything, they simply don’t really give a crap about the end result. Why? As for as they are concerned, money is endless as long as there are sick people to pay all their unnecessary charges. So, when a person can get what he or she wants by forcing others to pay for their expenses, he or she won’t care how others pay his expenses as long as he or she is happy. In the case of healthcare, private insurance won’t care what your health issue is and what treatments you need. They will first look at their pocket before they take a look at your doctor’s assessment of your health issues. Basically, private insurance wouldn’t care if you die. In fact, that’s what they probably hope happens to you. So, then the private insurance company doesn’t have to pay for your health problems. Go figure.”
“The results of having a government bureaucrat decide elective treatments due to rationing is far worse, in my opinion, than anything private insurance advocates tell us of the government.”
10:45
So, Lockheed Martin doesn’t qualify as “quality based” because of some scandal 34 years ago? Lockheed is THE BIGGEST defense contractor in the world.
Caterpillar is very successful, exports all over the world and has $22.1 billion in market capitalization. How is that “small?”
The U.S. still has great companies that make great products. It is a myth that the U.S. doesn’t create or manufacture anything. The products that are created today (vs. 30 years ago) in the U.S. are far more knowledege intensive: software, pharmaceuticals, heavy machinery, etc. The t-shirt and shoe making has been moved to countries with lower labor costs.
I’ll throw in Google and Eli Lilly as more examples of American companies that have Global products which dominate.
vulcanhammer´s last blog ..Obama tries to compare healthcare to the USPS–Stupid Move
22:32
Don’t forget Genetech or the fact that the US dominates the world in discovering new drugs, either. Let’s also mention companies like Microsoft or Apple or the fact that foreign companies like VW, Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Honda, and Toyota all build cars in the US or that American car companies are so bad that people like Mercedes-Benz bought Chrysler. Boeing also comes to mind as well as design companies like Adobe whose products like Flash and Photoshop are used by everybody everywhere.
12:56
Okay, you dont get it:
Cars: BMW, Volvo, Mercedes, Saab, Lancia, Ferrari, Peugeot, Renault, Volvo/Daf (trucks), Alfa Romeo, Bently, Rolls Royce, Range Rover, Austin, Rover,
Banks: not one of the USA banks are in the top 20 as trustworthy by Fortune. Only 3 make it in the top 50
Insurance companies: not one makes it world wide in the top 25
Design/art/life style: no further comments neccesary
Universities; of the 5000 USA universities only 150 makes it in that 5000
4.850 is trash
In fact it is silly to compare..what Europeans have, the USA lacks and vice versa…
But I ponder my head why Bush Jr. send a team to the Netherlands in 2007 to investigate how the Dutch insurance companies works.
I’ve great respect for Bush Senior, a guy who at least know that the USA needs Europe as Europe needs the USA. His last trip abroad was to his ‘town’ of Leiden in NL…his family was from there. He got a ticket parade..the first and only in NL in October 1992
http://thehague.usembassy.gov/news/events/events-2008/november-4—remarks-by-ambassador-culbertson-at-the-all-american-night-in-leiden.html
Hans´s last blog ..The West strikes back
22:28
Not sure what this has to do with healthcare but here is a list of the top banks in the world:
http://www.golivewire.com/forums/img.cgi?s=20670
And the top universities in the world:
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniversityrankings/results/2008/overall_rankings/
Seems that the US is doing just fine but I thank you for your concern!
20:52
I do feel kind of sorry for LibertyBelle – stuck in the US because she thinks that she can not get good health care anywhere else in the world. She does not mention how much the good care that her relative got cost – how much was paid by insurance and how much was paid out of pocket. If her g-mother had had the problem in France, there would have been no cost, no checking for insurance – just good care and, probably, the same outcome. If the family did not pay anything out of pocket, then g-mother was on the single-payer system known as Medicare.
22:23
When I lived in France I did slice open my hand by accident… I went to the American Hospital in Paris and paid a couple of hundred bucks to have it patched up. Had I been in a car accident I’m sure I would have been okay however I think the issues with single payer systems are not so much emergency medicine but longterm care and specialized treatments.
22:23
Grumpy Old Man said: “If the family did not pay anything out of pocket, then g-mother was on the single-payer system known as Medicare.”
Medicare is going broke and it already rations care–refusing to pay for virtual colonoscopies, asthma medications, certain cancer drugs, and diagnostic testing. Take a big guess on what’s going to happen when millions of people eventually find themselves on ObamaCare and costs skyrocket–more rationing. Additionally, the independent and non-partisanCongressional Budget Office has already made it clear–ObamaCare is going to be a LOT more expensive than Mr. Obama and the Democrats tell us. But for some crazy reason, there are some still out there that believe in a “free” lunch and they don’t even speak French.
vulcanhammer´s last blog ..Obama tries to compare healthcare to the USPS–Stupid Move
23:11
Wow! limiting a virtual colonoscopy – how barbaric, I imagine that means that they have to do it the old fashioned way; even full medical coverage limits the amount of care they will pay for (usually around $1million per patient lifetime) and most people do not have health care even that good. @vulcanhammer:
The article you referenced was short on specifics and long truth-stretching especially the bit \”(though in the end no one is denied actual care)\” – that is just pure cowpucky. The \’public plan\’ is just an option that offers insurance to those who are uninsured now and are left completely out of the system right now. The CBO posits that only about 12 million would opt for the public plan and the availability of the public option will make the insurance companies more responsive – get rid of the pre-existing condition crap, and force them to be more honest and up front on their exclusions.
You seem to be under the impression that insurance companies pay for everything and have no exclusions of their own – that is not accurate. Also, medical insurance is a \’tax\’ on citizens in that it also removes money from available pockets; that money is going to go into a bucket labeled \’health care\’ no matter where that bucket is located. It is not like medical insurance is free.
23:21
@harrison:
Just curious – why did you choose to go to the American Hospital in Paris rather than a French hospital?
23:23
Because I felt more comfortable going there. In fact, my French girlfriend went with me and she said the difference between the American Hospital in Paris and a typical French hospital was like night and day. I think it cost me $300 or something… well worth it especially after her comments.
Also when I was in France I went to an eye doctor for a check-up and I had my own private insurance that covered such things… I was able to pick the doctor that I wanted (he was English) and got very good care. I had to pay $100 or something for the glasses but that was fine. I also used the same system when my ear was hurting and, again, saw an English doctor. In the two years I lived in France I think I paid $600 for out-of-pocket expenses and maybe $1,200 for insurance. It was through my university I don’t remember but, again, my girlfriend was impressed that I could make an appointment only a day or so in advance and get it done!
When I sliced my hand open I was not yet enrolled in university so I had to pay the whole thing myself.
23:44
@Harrison – America actually ranks 72nd in deaths by Diarrhea with 1,500
http://rankingamerica.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/the-us-ranks-72nd-in-death-by-diarrhea/
I think this is in a world of 195 countries; India ranks #1 with 456,000 – definitely not a good reason to chant ‘we’re #1 we’re #1′
This was such a weird point that I had to do a little research just to see what there was to see about it – 5,000 deaths per day from diarrhea world wide
23:46
What a crappy way to die!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSykiBcRV14
Actually, for India, instead of chanting #1 they should chant #2!
01:02
“Wow! limiting a virtual colonoscopy – how barbaric, I imagine that means that they have to do it the old fashioned way; even full medical coverage limits the amount of care they will pay for (usually around $1million per patient lifetime) and most people do not have health care even that good.”— Well, until recently, seniors could get unlimited virtual colonoscopies. Now they have no choice in the matter. (BTW, the last time I checked the average private insurance policy limit is around 5-6 million.) This will be the future of ObamaCare just as it is in other single payer systems–rationing decided by bureaucrats. Who know, maybe they’ll nix hip replacements next.
“The article you referenced was short on specifics and long truth-stretching especially the bit \”(though in the end no one is denied actual care)\” – that is just pure cowpucky.”—-Yes, I’m sure the WSJ would sacrifice it sterling reputation by stretching the truth. Please show me empirical evidence of large populations of people being denied actual care–told to their face that because they don’t have cold hard cash or insurance they will be denied care.
“The \’public plan\’ is just an option that offers insurance to those who are uninsured now and are left completely out of the system right now. The CBO posits that only about 12 million would opt for the public plan and the availability of the public option will make the insurance companies more responsive – get rid of the pre-existing condition crap, and force them to be more honest and up front on their exclusions.”
—-When taxes are raised to pay for all the goodies that Obama wants, it will create an added burden to businesses that will then slowly let their employees slip onto the “public option.” Higher taxes have a nasty way of influencing behavior. The CBO numbers of “12 Million” do not take higher future taxes into its projection; it likely underestimates the cost and participation. Again, Medicare is going broke…anyone that believes that ObamaCare is going to pay for itself is kidding themselves.
“Also, medical insurance is a \’tax\’ on citizens in that it also removes money from available pockets; that money is going to go into a bucket labeled \’health care\’ no matter where that bucket is located. It is not like medical insurance is free.”
—No, medical insurance is not a tax. If I don’t want medical insurance, I don’t have to pay for it. You can not stop paying a Federal tax because you don’t want it. If you don’t believe me because you think I’m “stretching” the truth, try it sometime. Medical insurance shouldn’t be free like housing and food isn’t free.
vulcanhammer´s last blog ..Obama tries to compare healthcare to the USPS–Stupid Move
04:45
Harrison,
Most trusted banks by mid 2009:
http://internationmusing.blogspot.com/2009/06/world-safests-banks-mid-2009.html
Ands yes, there are 150 USA universities in the top 500, the other 4850 NOT.
All Dutch universities are in the top 150…and I paid 1.200 USD while for UCI I paid 36.000 USD a year…what a difference….
Hans´s last blog ..I challenge you!
23:04
you will gonna love this:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125014420293928457.html
Hans´s last blog ..I challenge you!
11:21
This thread will probably die pretty soon but I found a nice analysis by an admitted stats-geek here:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/08/life-after-death-of-public-option.html
@vulcanhammer: Do you consider car insurance a tax? Everyone has to have it so it must be a tax, right? Why shouldn’t medical care be free (just asking)?
@harrison: what do you think you would have paid here in the US (I have no clue because I have medical insurance most of the time). I have heard mixed things about medical service in France (NYT has an article in its Sunday magazine – http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/magazine/16lives-t.html?_r=1&ref=magazine ) some sound like the stereotypical ‘French waiter’.
Speaking of the stereotypical ‘French waiter’ – DW and I were tasked by my s-i-l to record or somehow document a rude waiter in Paris – we could not find one. We ate in restaurants all over Paris and found only very helpful waiters but then we went there the last 2 weeks in May – in June, July, and August the temp can get up to 105+ degs in the shade; so while every other Frenchman is off on vacation, only retail service people are left to deal with the public. Also, we both tried hard to speak French (and my mom came over as a war-bride from Paris). I loved Paris and I recommend anyone who goes there to visit do so outside of tourist season; take one of those small flip-chart type phrase books with you; buy the museum pass!!!!! The long lines you see to get into places are to buy tickets but with the pass you just walk past the lines and go right in – you may not see enough museums to pay for the pass but you will save sooo much time NOT standing in lines in the rain or 105 deg heat that it will be worth the investment
but I digress.
23:29
I don’t know what I would have paid in the US. Since I’d probably have insurance it would have been covered. I loved France, too. But I knew some people who just didn’t get along with the French the way I just don’t get along with the Germans… had nothing but bad experiences, overall, in that country!